The following is a discussion between myself and a “student of philosophy/theology.” This student had told me that he was an Atheist of sorts searching for meaning in life, etc. The student of philosophy will be [SoP] and I will be [CD].
[SoP] It seems to me that OTC’s claims would be greatly strengthened were they able to point to anywhere in Scripture where it is stated that the regenerate receive full and perfect knowledge of God’s soteriological mechanism AND/OR that ignorance of the actual mechanism at work effectively negates the reality of one’s regeneration/salvation. It seems to me that their claims are based on such beliefs, but I’ve seen no support for them.
[CD] “Brothers, truly my heart’s pleasure and supplication to God on behalf of Israel is for it to be saved. For I testify to them that they have zeal to God, but not according to knowledge. For being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of Law for righteousness to everyone that believes” (Romans 10:1-4).
[SoP] IOW, it would seem possible that a regenerate Christian could simply be honestly ignorant of or mistaken about the actual mechanism by which they are saved without the effect of such ignorance being the loss of his/her salvation. Without Scriptural support, it seems premature and frankly, rather arrogant, to argue that what seems to be an honest mistake condemns an otherwise faithful, orthodox believer.
[CD] “Brothers, truly my heart’s pleasure and supplication to God on behalf of Israel is for it to be saved. For I testify to them that they have zeal to God, but not according to knowledge. For being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of Law for righteousness to everyone that believes” (Romans 10:1-4).
These zealous religionists are ignorant of the “actual mechanism by which they are saved”: This so-called “mechanism” is the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel (Romans 1:16-17). And since these zealous religionists are ‘honestly ignorant’ of the righteousness of God, they are “mistakenly” going about to establish their own righteousness. This ignorance does not mean that the person lost his/her salvation. It means that they are presently NOT saved. They never had salvation in the first place. God might save them later on in time, but their ignorance of God’s righteousness now is a sure and certain sign that they are lost despite their zealous profession.
To finish your quote:
“…without the effect of such ignorance being the loss of his/her salvation. Without Scriptural support, it seems premature and frankly, rather arrogant, to argue that what seems to be an honest mistake condemns an otherwise faithful, orthodox believer.”
To reiterate: Ignorance does not mean they lost their salvation. It means they never had it to begin with. IOW, they are presently unsaved. You say that ignorance of the “actual mechanism” (Paul called it the righteousness of God), does not necessarily mean that the person is lost. God says (through the Apostle) that they are lost. Paul is praying for the salvation of these people who are ignorant of “God’s soteriological mechanism.” Or in MUCH SIMPLER TERMS: “God’s righteousness.” They are ignorant of how God is just to justify the ungodly (Romans 3:21-26). God calls those who are ignorant of His righteousness lost. But you call them saved. You also mentioned the phrase “orthodox believer.” I suppose that your idea of an orthodox believer is a person who may or may not believe the gospel wherein the righteousness of God is revealed (Romans 1:16-17; 3:21-26; 10:3-4). Those whom you call ‘orthodox believers’, the God calls unorthodox unbelievers who are ignorant of the righteousness of God that is revealed in the gospel.
[SoP] Ummm…okay, but where does it [Romans 10:1-4–CD] say anything about perfect knowledge? Where does it indicate that it is impossible to be mistaken about the mechanism for one’s own salvation?
[CD] I never said anything about “perfect” knowledge, nor did the passage [Romans 10:1-4–CD] that I chose to cite. The knowledge was simply God’s righteousness.
[SoP] If it is true that Arminians misunderstand exactly what is meant by “righteousness” in that passage, is it also true that they are unregenerate and upon what (Scripturally) do you base this assertion?
[CD] All who are ignorant of the righteousness of God are seeking to establish a righteousness of their own. This would include (but is not limited to) “Arminians.” You asked if all who are ignorant of this righteousness of God are unregenerate. My answer is YES, they are unregenerate. Upon what (Scripturally) do I base this assertion? Romans 10:1. Paul is praying for the salvation of those who are ignorant of God’s righteousness. You do not pray for the salvation of those whom you believe are already saved.
[SoP] I’m sorry, but that doesn’t seem to follow. The verse says “and”, which seems to indicate that one must be both ignorant and seeking to establish one’s own righteousness.
[CD] If one is ignorant of God’s righteousness, then they must believe that something *other than* God’s righteousness needs to be established.
[SoP] But what if one (eg. an Arminian) simply lacks perfect knowledge of what “Christ’s righteousness” is but nevertheless attempts to seek it as best he or she may (IOW, does not seek to establish his/her own righteousness)? Is this person necessarily unregenerate and if so, upon what do you base this assertion?
[CD] Romans 10:3 describes people who are ignorant of Christ’s righteousness (i.e., the righteousness of God). And since they are ignorant of Christ’s righteousness they cannot seek it or be submitted to it. For one cannot seek or be submitted to what one is ignorant of. The persons described in Romans 10:3 are not submitted to the righteousness of God and thus show themselves to be unregenerate. Again, I base this “assertion” on the prayer of the Apostle. He was praying for the salvation of those who were ignorant of God’s righteousness (Romans 10:1).
[SoP] The question is whether it’s possible for one to be mistaken about exactly what the “righteousness of God” is as revealed in the Gospel and still be saved.
[CD] So what exactly is this “righteousness of God” that is revealed in the Gospel? The righteousness of God is shown in His being just to justify the ungodly based on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone (Romans 3:21-26). To be ignorant of the righteousness of God is to believe that it is not the work of Christ that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. Instead, it is to establish one’s own righteousness. If Christ’s righteousness is not what makes the difference between salvation and damnation, then one’s own righteousness is. And that’s what all who believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception believe–not just the “Arminians”.
They do not believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. Instead, they believe that it is their own works and efforts that make the difference. They are ignorant of the righteousness of God and are seeking to establish their own righteousness before God. Thus they are not in submission to the righteousness of God. Paul judges all who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel to be presently unsaved. AND he prays for them, just as all Christians are to pray for them.
[SoP] Your standard is your interpretation of the Gospel. Until you can demonstrate (scripturally) that regeneration has made you an infallible interpreter of Scripture, you’re all in the same boat.
[CD] No Christian is an infallible interpreter of Scripture, but ALL Christians know infallibly what the Gospel is. For to be ignorant or mistaken about the gospel is to be lost (Mark 16:16; Romans 10:3). God gives His people understanding at the time He regenerates them (John 17:3; 1 John 5:20), and this faith is infallible. Clarification: No Christian is an infallible interpreter of Scripture in areas of indifference. But all Christians know and recognize infallibly the voice of the True Shepherd. And since they are infallible in this aforementioned area, they will NEVER follow a stranger (John 10:4-5).
[SoP] Well, from an epistemic sense, this would seem to be a contradictory statement. All natural knowledge of any printed text comes only through sensory perception and then interpretation. Obviously, then, you’re claiming that the act of regeneration provides some type of infallible knowledge directly to the mind, bypassing normal sensory perception and interpretation. Surely not an impossible feat for God, but impossible to verify naturally…
[CD] The gospel, which is clearly revealed within the Scriptures, is the power of God to salvation to everyone believing (Romans 1:16-17). God’s act of regenerating a sinner does NOT bypass “normal sensory perception and interpretation.” When a regenerate person reads (sense perception) and interprets the Scriptures he sees “the brightness of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” But to those who are unregenerate they cannot “see” the gospel because the god of this age has blinded their thoughts.So, BOTH the regenerate and the unregenerate use “normal sensory perception” and “interpretation.” These are NOT being bypassed as you asserted. The difference between the two is NOT that the unregenerate person is using sense perception/interpretation while the regenerate person is not. The difference is the regenerate person’s “sense perception” and “interpretative abilities” have been BRIGHTENED so that they can “see” the gospel, while the unregenerate person’s “sense perception” and “interpretative abilies” have been BLINDED so that they cannot “see” the gospel:
“Therefore, having this ministry, even as we obtained mercy, we do not faint.But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor corrupting the Word of God, but by the revelation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men before God. But also if our gospel is being hidden, it has been hidden in those being lost, in whom the god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the brightness of the gospel of the glory of Christ who is the image of God, should not dawn on them. For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves your slaves for the sake of Jesus. Because it is God who said, “Out of darkness Light shall shine,” who shone in our hearts to give the brightness of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the excellence of the power may be of God, and not from us” (2 Corinthians 4:1-7).
[SoP] Well, no. If I misread the directions on assembling a model airplane and mistakenly glue the wings on backwards, it doesn’t follow that by doing so I was trying to do something other than construct a model airplane…
[CD] Many people “misread” God’s “directions” as to the only way of salvation (John 14:6). They attempt to come to God in their own righteousness, rather than Christ’s righteousness alone. Whosever righteousness one believes makes the difference between salvation and damnation is the righteousness one is attempting to come to God in. If one believes that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception, then they are ipso facto attempting to come to the Father in their own righteousness, contrary to John 14:6.You gave a good example of a non sequitur regarding the building of model airplanes. But my argument is not a non sequitur because I am NOT saying that these certain people are trying to do something other than “construct model airplanes.” They certainly are trying to build something. They are trying to erect a Tower of Babel, made with their own self-righteous materials. These people believe that it was something they did, some effort on their part, or something God enabled them to do, that made the ultimate difference between salvation and damnation. It’s either Christ’s work alone that makes the difference between heaven and hell (John 14:6), or it is the work of the self-righteous tower builders that makes the difference.
[SoP] No, that is clearly a non sequitur. If my brother tells me how to get to New York, and by misunderstanding his directions I end up in Rhode Island, it does not follow that I was not trying to get to New York.
[CD] Again, your illustration of your brother giving you directions to New York is indeed a non sequitur. But my argument is NOTHING like the illustration you gave. For I am NOT saying that these people are not trying to get to “New York.” They certainly are trying to get there. BUT they are trying to get to “New York” in their own way, and by their own righteousness by erecting a “Babylonish” Tower. They do not believe that it is the work of Jesus Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation; instead, these self-righteous boasters believe that it is the effort of the sinner that makes the difference between salvation and damnation.
[SoP] Why would you go looking for something you already have?
[CD] No one is looking for something that they already have. I never said that people seek things that they already have. Paul said that certain people are ignorant of God’s righteousness. And since they are completely ignorant of it, they obviously cannot be looking for it. That’s not to say that they are not looking. They are looking. They are looking to establish a righteousness of their own.
[SoP]Obviously in order to seek something you must have some idea of what that something is, but there is no need for it to be a perfect conception of that something in order to sincerely believe that one has found it.
[CD] You keep on using the words “perfect,” “perfect knowledge,” and “perfect conception.” You make it sound like the Gospel is something very hard to understand. The atonement of Jesus Christ is at the very heart of the Gospel. It is the very basic of the gospel. It is just as basic as the deity of Christ. It is NOT hard to understand. Jesus Christ is Almighty God and the work of Jesus Christ saves. If one believes in universal atonement–like your average Arminian does–then one does NOT believe that the work of Jesus Christ saves. The universal atonement advocate does NOT believe that it is the work of Jesus Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation.
[SoP] Well, technically Paul was praying for the Jews, whose failure to acknowledge Christ as the savior clearly places them outside the pale of regeneration. But here you seem to be applying the same thinking to those who desire with their whole heart to submit themselves to Christ’s righteousness but who, through the fault of a mistake, have interpreted His Word incorrectly. Not only that, but you reject, without reason, the possibility that they may NOT be seeking to establish their own righteousness but instead be seeking, albeit not perfectly, to establish His.
[CD] If one is ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel, then he is ipso facto ignorant of Christ who is Righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6). And since he is ignorant of Christ, then he is ignorant of the gospel of Christ wherein the righteousness of God is revealed (Romans 1:17). And being ignorant of the gospel of Christ, he certainly cannot believe the gospel of Christ, since he cannot believe what he does not know (Romans 10:13-14). Therefore, he is unsaved.
In Romans 10:3, Paul says that the Israelites are ignorant of the righteousness of God and are thus automatically, inevitably, and necessarily seeking to establish their own righteousness. If they are ignorant of God’s righteousness, then they must believe that something *other than* God’s righteousness needs to be established in order for them to be right with God. And being ignorant of God’s righteousness, they obviously cannot be submitted to it as the only ground of salvation.
If one is submitted to God’s righteousness, then he believes that Christ’s righteousness makes the only difference between heaven and hell. For whatever work one believes makes the ultimate difference between heaven and hell, that is the righteousness that is established for that person. Whatever work one believes makes the ultimate difference between heaven and hell, that is the righteousness being submitted to.
To be ignorant of the righteousness of God is to believe that it is not the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. Instead, it is to establish one’s own righteousness. If Christ’s righteousness is not what makes the difference between salvation and damnation, then one’s own righteousness is what makes the difference. And that is what all who hold to the heresy that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception believe.
[Chris] The above correspondence took place several years ago. I would just add the following to “SoP’s” last comment: SoP says that certain false religionists “desire with their whole heart to submit to Christ’s righteousness.” If they did desire to submit to Christ’s righteousness they would believe that His righteousness was the only ground of acceptance before God. They believe that Christ established a righteousness for everyone without exception (which includes those that perish) and so they believe that their own righteousness is the ultimate ground of acceptance. And of course, those who are ignorant of the righteousness of Christ revealed in the gospel are NOT imperfectly submitting to His righteousness, but seeking to establish their own as that which makes the utimate difference between salvation and damnation.
Agrammatos 